Maveritchell wrote:Now we can all talk in the open about how Obi-Wan died and they brought him back as a clone..

They did?

But yeah.Too many spoiler blockers.

Maveritchell wrote:There, changed the title to include auto spoiler warning. When 90% of the chat is in spoiler's something's silly. Now we can all talk in the open about how Obi-Wan died and they brought him back as a clone.

Zapattack1234 wrote:

Maveritchell wrote:There, changed the title to include auto spoiler warning. When 90% of the chat is in spoiler's something's silly. Now we can all talk in the open about how Obi-Wan died and they brought him back as a clone.

Mav made a joke!
Back on topic, concerning Pre being "bad" or not, simply based on him being a terrorist. Techincally, the Alliance to Restore the Republic was a group of radicals and terrorists, too. While the Rebels probably wouldn't have ordered a village burned to the ground, they didn't exactly keep their noses clean in the eyes of citizens of the Empire that made up the common society.

I'm not saying Death Watch or Vizsla were "good," I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion, but there is a little perspective to take into account.

TW makes a good point. I suppose any time there are freedom fighters trying to overthrow a government, they will be labeled as terrorists. However, I don't quite think the Alliance and the Death Watch can really be compared properly. Most people in the galaxy could see how the Death Watch's goals were less than amiable: "Honor! Glory! Warrior ways!" Not quite as a good of a ring as "Freedom! Justice! Equal treatment of aliens!"

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Death Watch is good. I just didn't agree with Satine's views either. A middle road would have been best; something along the lines of "Speak softy but carry a big stick".

Look at the Alliance High Command, look at Solo getting to lead the Endor mission instead of Orrimaarko, an immensely more qualified choice. The Alliance was better than the Empire but they still weren't that great about it. I also somewhat recant my views on Vizzla, I totally forgot about the village.

Orrimaarko? It was Orrimaarko himself who said he was far better qualified to do the job(thus not a credible opinion), and he was prejudiced against humans. Not a great choice.

Han was made a general not because he was a brilliant tactician with loads of service time, but he had the trust of the men and was resourceful, quick thinking.

The Alliance was better than the Empire but they still weren't that great about it.

I don't even, what? They were better ethically, but still weren't that great? Great at decision making?

Why, specifically do people think the Rebels were terrorists? I haven't read every piece of literature ever written, but I don't remember ever reading about Rebels attacking civilians, taking hostages, or using terror as a weapon.
Besides Imperial propaganda of course.
If anything, the Empire is more of a 'terrorist' type organization, even though they are the 'legal' authority and have numbers on their side, not the guerrillas. The whole point of the Death Star was that 'Fear will keep the local systems in like, fear of this battle station.'

Don't agree with our decision? Hm, let's take a vote on...
OH WAIT! CHARGE THE SUPERLASER!
ok ok we agree please dont vaporize our planet...

And then there was the slaughter at Teardrop. (not at all an isolated incident) It was a suspected Rebel base, but they all escaped before the Empire got there. And then the Stormtroopers killed everyone, with no resistance at all. When a Stormtrooper was caught trying NOT to kill innocent's, he ended up having to kill an officer in self defense.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to say that the Empire and Alliance were on equal moral terms.

Han Solo had to be convinced to save a planet full of people from imminent death. I never said that the Empire was good, or that the Rebellion was bad, but I did say the Rebellion was not as totally fair on species equality as they could have been, but surely far far better than the Empire.
What is to say that the men didn't trust Orrimaarko as much as they trusted solo, and what is there to say he wasn't just as quick thinking, I would personally take someone who has been fighting the Empire for years than a I guy who has spent the last year of his life as a palace decoration.

ARCTroopaNate wrote:Han Solo had to be convinced to save a planet full of people from imminent death.

If you refer to Yavin 4, he wasn't a rebel at the time, so his choice then doesn't reflect the Alliance. And besides, he did come back.

ARCTroopaNate wrote:What is to say that the men didn't trust Orrimaarko as much as they trusted solo, and what is there to say he wasn't just as quick thinking, I would personally take someone who has been fighting the Empire for years than a I guy who has spent the last year of his life as a palace decoration.

Having no previous knowledge of Orrimaarko, I just looked at his wookieepedia page, and one of his, and his species, traits is xenophobia, in particular against humans.
It looks like he was a competent soldier, but there very well could be issues with having him lead in a diverse Alliance.
Either way, the decision wasn't between good and evil here, it was between two people that could probably both have gotten the job done.

*I would personally take someone who* trained with the imperials and therefore knows their tactics and routines, did something about the cruelty he saw, even though it sunk his career, had a chance to dump passengers vital to the rebellion at the first sign of a Star Destroyer even though he thought they were just some whiny kid and an old guy, but didn't, had a chance to leave Yavin 4 to be destroyed and pay off his personal debt to a powerful gangster and protect himself from getting a death mark, but didn't, than some soldier I never heard of.

And always making the absolute perfect decision that everyone in the universe agrees with every single time is simply not possible. Even for the good guys. Please, never try to tell me the Empire and Rebels are just, meh, about the same morally, based on the Rebels making a couple mistakes and the Empire committing genocide. Not that anyone here said it, but I've heard it before.

So, just for my sanity's sake...

A summary of the conversation about Vizla:

Question: Is Vizla a bad guy or a good guy?
Vizla is a bad guy because he is a terrorist.
So wait, if terrorism is by definition bad, then the rebels must be bad, therefore does calling Visla bad simply because he's a terrorist make sense? Because the rebels are supposed to be the good guys, right?
But the rebels aren't terrorists, so yes, it still makes sense that Visla is bad because he's a terrorist.
Conclusion: Vizla is a bad guy. Time to continue talking about TCW...

I wonder if Satine will change her political strategy after this whole ordeal; assuming that she lives. The next episode looks like it's gonna be a good one.

Yeah, the previous episode took some interesting turns. Can't wait to see where they go.

Can't wait till tommorow.

I'd like to see Anakin and Obi-Wan take on the sith brothers, then behead both. Maybe not immediately, but at some point. Also, it's time for a young Han Solo cameo -- pre-Empire days. Some arrogant teenager with a hotrod landspeeder or something.

How old would Solo be at this time? Considering he married Leia he shouldn't be that much older than her.

He's be around 8 or so.

I need to read the book and stuff.

Tommorow! :maulsaber:

I knew as soon as it was revealed she was a love interest for Obi-wan, that they'd kill her off, but I didn't expect it to be this episode. I know a lot of people hated her, but my dad and I didn't.

She wanted a new Mandalore. One of peace, not war. I can respect that. Maybe people watching this show are too young to understand the horrors of war, to understand why she was such a pacifist. She wanted to stay out of the Clone War, so she stayed neutral.

Even after everything, I pity Savage and Maul. They will never have friends, or know peace, or know what it is like to be loved. I feel sorry for them.

It was a good episode, if a bit depressing.