-= Gametoast.com =-

NB: apologies to staff if I'm repeating anything in the GT staff's Advice thread.

This is just my 2 cents to anyone who is seriously considering starting a big mod/mappack. If anyone else who's done/still doing a big mod/mappack ants to add to it, feel free.


Things you need:
Experience.
Motivation/Dedication/Obsessiveness.

To get the first one:
Practice (at mapping, modding, side modding, maybe modelling), read documentation/GT resources.
Make and release a few good maps/side mods first.

To get the second one:
Make and release a few good maps/side mods first.
Now ask yourself: could I do the same, except putting about 5-10x as much time/effort/work/stress into it?

Things you might need:
Other modders to help you.
Two points here.
One: you'll still be doing lots of work.
Two: ask for people to help when your mod is 50%+ done. You'll get more experienced people interested and the mod should have direction by then, so hopefully won't just sink into a think tank of ideas, ideas, and almost no actual content.

Mistakes people make when planning mods/mappacks

I have lots of ideas!
-So does everyone. If you can't implement them/don't have the dedication to follow them through then they'll stay as ideas.

I can't mod/map/do something
- Then learn to. At some point even the most experienced modders/mappers couldn't either, and there are better resources around these days (eg Fierek's mapping tut).

I can organise a mod with lots of other people to do the actual work
- Then you'll be wasting your time. At least two mods have tried to do this and got a short way then died. Have a look at all the finished/released big mods. Every one of them has had an experienced "project lead"/organiser (for 607th/DT they're also the sole developer, but nvm that) who's more than competant at modding BF2.
If your in charge of a mod project and want it to succeed, you'll be doing work and lots of it.

That said, good luck to anyone trying.

Skyhammer_216 wrote:
I can organize a mod with lots of other people to do the actual work
- Then you'll be wasting your time. At least two mods have tried to do this and got a short way then died. Have a look at all the finished/released big mods. Every one of them has had an experienced "project lead"/organizer (for 607th/DT they're also the sole developer, but nvm that) who's more than competent at modding BF2.
If your in charge of a mod project and want it to succeed, you'll be doing work and lots of it.

I've seen this happen all too much with mod projects that would have had the potential to be one of the greatest ever, had they had a leader who was willing to work.

My three cents, is to take Sky's advice here, and learn from the mistakes of mods such as "Clone Wars Project", That one medieval mod, and possibly soon-to-be dead "Star Trek Conversion".

There are a few others that could be on this list too, but as of now I don't want to discourage the authors by mentioning my opinion here.

Good write-up Sky, you just earned yourself a Tofu Jerky Pizza!

Oh wait, there's one more thing I want to comment on.

Don't worry, I'll stop rambling soon enough.

Skyhammer_216 wrote: Things you need:
Experience.
Motivation/Dedication/Obsessiveness.

To get the first one:
Practice (at mapping, modding, side modding, maybe modelling), read documentation/GT resources.
Make and release a few good maps/side mods first.

To get the second one:
Make and release a few good maps/side mods first.
Now ask yourself: could I do the same, except putting about 5-10x as much time/effort/work/stress into it?

Here I must disagree, while you do need to put a lot of effort into a big mod such as these, I don't think that 5-10x as much is a good idea.

Of course, its always nice to touch up your maps with all the small things that make your map unique, but if you are obsessing over making your map TEH BEST EBUR!!!111!!one!!1, then your gonna have a lot of stress, which shouldn't be part of modding. Modding should be a fun experience for you, and hopefully for the people that get to play your mods.

Focus on your map/gameplay first, and once you get that to a point that YOU like, if you feel that the map still needs some work you can do all those little touch ups to make your map unique.

[/ramble]

Skyhammer_216 wrote:Things you might need:
Other modders to help you.

...

I can organise a mod with lots of other people to do the actual work
...

If your in charge of a mod project and want it to succeed, you'll be doing work and lots of it.

Just an add-on, I'd go a step further and say if you're not willing (and able, that always helps) to do 100% of the work, you'll most likely end up with a dead project. I don't think it's a good idea to head into any big project unless you are prepared to do everything. Unpaid groups of volunteers are unreliable. You can consider it a bonus if someone helps you but in the end you've got to be ready and willing to do everything. No person, even if they've offered to do something, "owes" you any work or has any real commitment, especially when it's your name that goes on the project and your idea.

Not to be overly negative, of course. Doing all the work is a great reward and by pushing yourself to take care of it all you will get a lot of good experience.

@DRK: Stress is from crashing/freezes etc. There'll probably be more in a mod than a map.
Effort: ermmm....depends how many maps you have.
PS. And I'm currently vegetarian so tofu jerly pizza = win.

You can consider it a bonus if someone helps you but in the end you've got to be ready and willing to do everything.

This topic kinda makes me think about how they made the conversion pack

In a positive way or negative way?

"they" build it part by part, it was just a swbf1-maps conversion at the beginning

Definitely agree with all of that. Especially these points:

Motivation/Dedication/Obsessiveness.

I can't mod/map/do something
- Then learn to. At some point even the most experienced modders/mappers couldn't either, and there are better resources around these days (eg Fierek's mapping tut).

Edit: My own tidbit of advice to add - be flexible. If you realize that something is beyond the scope of what you can accomplish for whatever reason - time, motivation, game limitations, etc. - you should be willing to adjust and find a way to work around those limitations rather than drop your project entirely. Don't be afraid to scale down the size of a project. Cut down from nine maps to six or seven; make a few custom sides similar to the stock game instead of individual, completely re-done sides for each map.

DarthD.U.C.K. wrote:"they" build it part by part, it was just a swbf1-maps conversion at the beginning

There lies the key for my big, yet not perfect, mod Battlefront Zero.. I think it is one of the main things that makes a big mod: start small, don't make a lot of plans at all. Just go do it, and you'll notice where you end up in the end. For me it was with a lot of custom models, and unfinished things, which is what almost killed my mod. Indeed, motivation, but also well-taken brakes are, I think, the things that keep the mods running. Now I got a quite decent mod, and with a lot of help which you can always accept (excepting help is not starting a 'mod-team' and command each other), I'm sure any big mod, also mine, will in the end be awesome..

Again, my point is.. Don't plan a big mod. Just plan: '- Work on mod'..

Another tip: (only applies when you qualify for Sky's listed requirements)

Think big, but be willing to cut things - or at least have a stopping point. I had sooooo much more planned for the Convo Pack back in the day, but at some point you have to call it done, and I'd say Mav agrees with me on that one. The ideas you don't get in you can always put in a future mod. Look at all the awesome stuff Mav put into the Dark Times mod (and all his other mods for that matter) after we all finished up the Convo Pack.

Teancum wrote:I had sooooo much more planned for the Convo Pack back in the day, but at some point you have to call it done, and I'd say Mav agrees with me on that one.

Entirely untrue, I wanted to stop when all the bugs were fixed, but Teancum kept whipping me and sending me threatening letters - I really had no choice but to add things. It was only after I got in contact with OSHA that I was finally able to stop. It was horrible.

Okay no just kidding, finding a good stopping point is important. The reason it's important is because with a big project you have to give yourself some victories sometime, and if you just keep adding but never finishing then you'll just end up wearing yourself thin. If you want to make something really big, make it episodically.

Maveritchell wrote:If you want to make something really big, make it episodically.

I semi-agree with that. That's what I initially did with Aldura because I felt it was better to release it one "episode" at a time with a waiting period of a few months in-between rather than making people wait for a long time for a mappack. In the end I did change my mind, so people are waiting for months (at this point, years) for a mappack, but I made that decision because I knew there were times where the waiting periods between maps would be much longer for various reasons - the main reason being the fact that I knew there would be points where I couldn't work on it or would just want a break. I didn't want to risk releasing a map that left people with a cliffhanger in the story, then have a period of inactivity and not complete another map for six or seven months.

I think it just depends on the situation. Episodes have worked well for Maveritchell with Rebel Ops because he's been able to stay fairly consistent with progress, they didn't work for me with Aldura because there have been so many times that I haven't been able to work on it persistently.

Maveritchell wrote:Okay no just kidding, finding a good stopping point is important. The reason it's important is because with a big project you have to give yourself some victories sometime, and if you just keep adding but never finishing then you'll just end up wearing yourself thin. If you want to make something really big, make it episodically.

Agreed on that, but that i have this question for a long time now..I've been modding around 2 years now, and basicly everything went into BF0.. I want to finish it now, and start something new.. But questions suddenly appear in my head as ghosts in a toys store.. What shall I make? In the end, I'm also afraid I can't avoid taking assets from BF0, since it basicly covers a lot of CW content.. Which brings me to the conclusion everytime: don't make a new mod, just add it in BF0 (Weapon Conquest, Mandalorian Affairs) How do you 'let go' of your mod?

MandeRek wrote:How do you 'let go' of your mod?

Find a new game.

No, kidding, but you never really "let go" of anything you invested a lot of time into and with which you have acceptable results. Either find an entirely new theme or get used to the idea of some work spilling over/blending with what you've already done.

Maveritchell wrote:

Teancum wrote:Okay no just kidding, finding a good stopping point is important. The reason it's important is because with a big project you have to give yourself some victories sometime, and if you just keep adding but never finishing then you'll just end up wearing yourself thin. If you want to make something really big, make it episodically.

Maveritchell wrote:If you want to make something really big, make it episodically..

Yep, that's advice I should be taking about.....now.


Agree with Mande on the "mod-team" thing...people don't have any sort of commitment to help out at all, but help can be nice when you get it.

DarthRogueKnight wrote: I've seen this happen all too much with mod projects that would have had the potential to be one of the greatest ever, had they had a leader who was willing to work.

My three cents, is to take Sky's advice here, and learn from the mistakes of mods such as "Clone Wars Project", That one medieval mod, and possibly soon-to-be dead "Star Trek Conversion".

Soon-to-be-dead? Not likely. I'm just doing most of the work (correct me if i'm wrong), but I'm visiting my cousin in the hospital right now, which is in Tennessee (My modding computer is in CA), so in like, a month, I'm going to get back to 'helping'.

But, you ARE right, learn from those mistakes.

And maybe an advice to people who help in a big project;
Also be prepared to do all the work that was originally shared between the people who joined the project.

MandeRek wrote:

Maveritchell wrote:Okay no just kidding, finding a good stopping point is important. The reason it's important is because with a big project you have to give yourself some victories sometime, and if you just keep adding but never finishing then you'll just end up wearing yourself thin. If you want to make something really big, make it episodically.

Agreed on that, but that i have this question for a long time now..I've been modding around 2 years now, and basicly everything went into BF0.. I want to finish it now, and start something new.. But questions suddenly appear in my head as ghosts in a toys store.. What shall I make? In the end, I'm also afraid I can't avoid taking assets from BF0, since it basicly covers a lot of CW content.. Which brings me to the conclusion everytime: don't make a new mod, just add it in BF0 (Weapon Conquest, Mandalorian Affairs) How do you 'let go' of your mod?

Well, but isn't BF0 episodacally released anyway? I mean, the set-up for releases is basically divided into episodes:
0.9 release betá
1.0 release
1.1 bug fixed
1.2 new content
1.9 lot's of new content betá
2.0 full release with lots of new content
etc.

True, which is exactly my point.. I need to take Mav´s advice, and stop adding new content. Time to play every mode, every map, every unit, weapon,vehicle and hero, and kill all those bugs (wanna join me mate? )

Again, probably the biggest mods, started without any expectations of it becoming so big..

[TFA]Padawan_Fighter wrote:

DarthRogueKnight wrote: I've seen this happen all too much with mod projects that would have had the potential to be one of the greatest ever, had they had a leader who was willing to work.

My three cents, is to take Sky's advice here, and learn from the mistakes of mods such as "Clone Wars Project", That one medieval mod, and possibly soon-to-be dead "Star Trek Conversion".

Soon-to-be-dead? Not likely. I'm just doing most of the work (correct me if i'm wrong), but I'm visiting my cousin in the hospital right now, which is in Tennessee (My modding computer is in CA), so in like, a month, I'm going to get back to 'helping'.

But, you ARE right, learn from those mistakes.

But my point here is you aren't the leader, Gen.Kenobi is, and so far all he has done is 6-7 models for the project then gone inactive.

My point in saying that was to point out the fact that we have a leader who is inactive, and not experienced enough to do the majority of the work, which comes with the responsibility of being a mod project leader.

No offence to him or anything, but I don't think a person that can't stay active, and can't seem to stay focused on one project is capable of leading a mod that required a tremendous amount of work such as this one. It seems that ever since the project has been started, he has attempted to start 3 others, a movie making one, a HL:2 conversion, and something else that I can't remember off the top of my head.

If he can't stay focused on one project, then they are all going to fail, which at this point, they all have.

That's just my two-cents about the Final Frontier mod here, sorry to anyone I upset.

MandeRek wrote:True, which is exactly my point.. I need to take Mav´s advice, and stop adding new content. Time to play every mode, every map, every unit, weapon,vehicle and hero, and kill all those bugs (wanna join me mate? )

Again, probably the biggest mods, started without any expectations of it becoming so big..

Yeah...when I first announced DS it had sides that were practically done. But then DT random side scripting stuff came out, I like making sides anyway, had ideas for new weaponry etc......

And now, 8 months on they're...practically done?