-= Gametoast.com =-

Time to rain on some penguin's parades.

Hardly seems like telling them what they're getting into.

If you read his actual post in the thread, then it's entirely telling them the aforementioned.

Marth8880 wrote:Ah, alright then. Still though, that's just modding. What they're trying to do is a whole new game, not that they shouldn't try or anything, WULF is just telling them to make sure they know what they're getting into.

Technically, they were using UDK, which is modding. They were not building an engine, they were just modifying what was already there, which by definition is modding. However, what they are looking at doing now is a SWBF2 mod, so they can learn to collaborate with each other.

willinator wrote:Technically, they were using UDK, which is modding. They were not building an engine, they were just modifying what was already there, which by definition is modding.

Then in that context, Mass Effect is a mod, Crysis is a mod, Star Wars Battlefront II is a mod, etc. You know what I mean when I say modding.

I did actually read his post, but anyway.

Marth8880 wrote:

willinator wrote:Technically, they were using UDK, which is modding. They were not building an engine, they were just modifying what was already there, which by definition is modding.

Then in that context, Mass Effect is a mod, Crysis is a mod, Star Wars Battlefront II is a mod, etc. You know what I mean when I say modding.

Not true(maybe for SWBFII). In UDK you (usually) base all your classes(as in programming classes/objects) of off the already existing classes from Unreal Tournament 3. When you start UDK Game right after installing UDK it's still UT3. Pretty much the same as creating a data_ABC folder. The only difference is that there's not much left of UT3 in the end. It's like creating a total conversion.

AFAIK the same applies to Source. You start with a game and then mod it until there's nothing left(games created with source are called Source Mods).
In Unity3D or Panda3D you only have the engine at the beginning, no game mechanics.

And a small comment on WULFs post: The Source engine is not really an option for them. No visual programming, no easy model/texture pipeline, no visual material/animation/sound editing, AFAIK only C# coding(not that difficult but still difficult enough for beginners). Unity or something like that would be a better choice.

Ah, yes, that makes sense. Still, I'd really love to see a Battlefront III developed under CryENGINE 3. I mean, DANG that would look good. Ugh, I cannot stand the Unreal Tournament gameplay style. I don't really even know why, I just HATE it. It's just way too deathmatchy I guess.

Maveritchell wrote:

Hidden/Spoiler:

-Using the Star Wars license noncommercially isn't illegal provided a court rules that it's falling under fair use. It would be within Lucasarts/Lucas Media's grounds to sue you (or to start those proceedings with something like a takedown notice), but that doesn't mean that you're doing something illegal, it only means that Lucas thinks it might have a court case for your work infringing on their IP. There are any number of Star Wars mods in non-Star-Wars games or any number of fan-build Star Wars games that would seem to give the lie to your infringing argument.

Alright, fair enough. I've never once claimed I know much about law, although it could seem like I'm implying that by how I talked. My point still stands however, that Lucasarts has the legal right to sue them. LA has been known to be a total quack about that. Something even they mentioned on those forums, LA got a cease and desist order on the A Clone Apart machinima. That's just a simple machinima, I can't imagine how they would react to someone trying to create Battlefront III.

I do not wish to sound condescending, if I do then I blame my lack of intelligence for that and I apologize. Which brings me to the second point.

Maveritchell wrote:

Hidden/Spoiler:

-You've released what, like one map? You've obviously learned a lot subsequently by taking on some larger-scale projects, but going into those projects you had basically no experience. And did you enjoy yourself on the way there? Was it worth it? You seem to be taking the stance with these guys that they should think carefully about starting something big because they might not enjoy it, when you seem to have had the opposite experience. And this point goes for anyone in this thread pooh-poohing people with little experience starting a big project. The quickest way to learn how to do something is by doing it.

I've publicly released one map, yes. When I started I had literally no experience. Yes, generally it was a lot of fun. Yes it was worth it. However that is only the public half of the story. I had tons of free time to learn because I have no social life, I home school, and I have a lot health issues. So I spend a lot of time in bed. I appear to have learned quicker than most, in all honestly I just had more time on my hands to practice. Most people are not like me, they have public school or college, a job (like you, Mav), a social life, and so on. I don't want people starting a project if it's going to drastically and negatively affect their lives. I'm sure if they intend to go into game development that it would give them a lot of great practice and hands-on-knowledge, but again this would take time away from their actual schoolwork which they need.

I attempted to make it clear what I was trying to say, and apparently failed. I'm not very good at this. I wasn't trying to stop them at all. I simply wanted everyone to be clear exactly what they were getting themselves into. If they have the time and patience, then brilliant. More power to them.

Now onto what Nate and Marth ended up talking about. Nate, again, refer to the above. I have the time on my hands to work on a half dozen projects because I have immense amounts of free time.

ARCTroopaNate wrote:

Hidden/Spoiler:

[quote]Time to rain on some penguin's parades.

Hardly seems like "telling them what they're getting into."[/hide][/quote]

It seems I need to clarify what I'm saying here. I'm not insulting them, it's really just a private joke that I guess should have stayed private. I was simply saying in jest that I was going to sound like a little black rain cloud.

ANDEWEGET wrote:And a small comment on WULFs post: The Source engine is not really an option for them. No visual programming, no easy model/texture pipeline, no visual material/animation/sound editing, AFAIK only C# coding(not that difficult but still difficult enough for beginners). Unity or something like that would be a better choice.

I see. Well that's disappointing. I love Source. I knew it was hard to work with, but I didn't know it was that bad.

THEWULFMAN wrote: I don't want people starting a project if it's going to drastically and negatively affect their lives. I'm sure if they intend to go into game development that it would give them a lot of great practice and hands-on-knowledge, but again this would take time away from their actual schoolwork which they need.

You're not their mum you know.

I'm sure they realise it'll take a lot of work to create a mod/game like this.

Mav has completely got it.

I respect all of the modders here because you guys do great work. I have logged many hours on maps I would never have found of it wasn't for getting on this site. That said, some of you are more discouraging then you need to be. Whether this is a completely misguided attempt or not is irrelevant, because telling people something can't be done before it's tried is not constructive, and it comes off as condescending.

Frankly WULF, I appreciate that you may look at Mav's post and respect that, then look at this and write me off as some disgruntled nobody, but you have only put out one map. As much work as you've done on mods (of which there is substantial evidence, granted), you haven't done enough in my mind to warrant signing up to another forum to dissect people's mod ideas.

I'm sure I'll be vilified for stating this as an amateur member of this community, but whatever.

I'm not going to go over everything you said, I'll just say I'm not one to consider anyone a "disgruntled nobody." That's just not who I am. So no, I'm not going to vilify you.

Speaking of that forum, I made another post. Hopefully clearing a few things up. My goal is simple, I don't want to discourage them yet at the same time I don't want them rushing into a project without knowing the level of work needed. That's really it.

And @Lucasfart, so? :{U If people only every cared about their own family, this world would kinda suck.

THEWULFMAN wrote:And @Lucasfart, so? :{U If people only every cared about their own family, this world would kinda suck.

He's saying that you're kind of making it your responsibility to watch over those people and their project as if you were their mother.
Look at it this way, if a guy who had 7 posts in GT jumped into one of your WIP threads and started soliciting advice, telling you what they think you should and shouldn't do, and telling you what needs to be accomplished, how would you react?

To be honest, I'm kinda with you, WULF. That they don't know what they're fully getting into and they probably need a wake up call, defining what needs to happen. But that doesn't mean one of us, a complete stranger to that community, should take up that burden. Let them figure it out on their own.

Maveritchell wrote:You seem to be taking the stance with these guys that they should think carefully about starting something big because they might not enjoy it, when you seem to have had the opposite experience. And this point goes for anyone in this thread pooh-poohing people with little experience starting a big project. The quickest way to learn how to do something is by doing it.

And Mav, no offense, but you're kind of condescending, too, when someone here at GT tries to start a big project. All of us are. I realize your work on the Convo Pack has given you a little more experience, but let's face it, by the time *I* joined GT, that project had nearly died and you were working on the bulk of it by yourself. And yet every time I've seen someone on these forums try to start a community project, they're told off, with most of the community saying that they probably need more experience and effort to do the work by themselves and not to rely on others to finish their project for them.

All I see on that Gloom Walkers website is a handful of models, "concept art," and a crapload of "idea" threads. That's a far stretch from "having the experience and effort to tackle the project with or without help." So yes, a few of us are "pooh-poohing" these people, but that's cuz we were trained to do so here on GT. Maybe if they get the project off the ground, I'll be a little more optimistic. But honestly, I'm taking it like I'm taking the real SWBF3: I'll believe it when I see it and not a moment sooner.

Yeah, this one's getting a big fat padlock. This is nothing more than a bunch of inexperienced folks who are thinking about 300x beyond their abilities. There are more than enough idea men out there. If there were something substantial to show it might serve to interest this community, but I'm calling it right now: this won't ever be anything more than a bunch of pen-and-paper "concept art" drawings, a few poorly done and never-to-be-finished models and maps, and a bunch of idea men. If an extremely experienced community finds it too overwhelming to do something on this scale a bunch of dreamers don't have a chance.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I've been modding games for 15+ years and I've seen this happen dozens of times over.

*EDIT*

One more note: To do a SWBF mod on this scale would take an experienced team at least 18 months. To then try doing all that with a toolset with which nobody is familiar (UDK), to have to write all of your own scripts, to not be able to reuse animations, physics and so many other things would take 4+ years. NOBODY sticks on a mod team that long. You're lucky if a team sticks together for more than a year, and that's on a high profile mod for a high profile game.

Tean, sorry to post ex post facto:

Twilight_Warrior wrote:And Mav, no offense, but you're kind of condescending, too, when someone here at GT tries to start a big project. All of us are...So yes, a few of us are "pooh-poohing" these people, but that's cuz we were trained to do so here on GT.

You're right, and I'm not holding myself up as a shining paragon here. I've been more pessimistic than I need to be about others' work before, and it's not nice and doesn't feel good. I want to provide some of you that are simply trying to separate yourselves from anything "newbie" the opportunity not to make the same kinds of mistakes. Don't be overly negative. That is all.