-= Gametoast.com =-

Yeah, I don't get that, I did nothing here guys.

I think that if there is support for saving as MSH, it shouldn't require registry. Not many people here use the full XSI program, and not many models are actually made by the people who do have it. This function could revolutionize the entire community.
I just said it should be availible if you don't register because I'm not about to ask my parents (I'm only a teen, you know) to buy a model converter program for $20 bucks. They would probably never use it at all, lol.

- EP-000782

Nice find PlayerX. I grabbed it and viewed a few objects.
I love the Object and Material selctor...awesome...it just needs to show the textures associated with the object. I can get that by going to view- quick material information, or right clicking the material in the selector, but I'd like to see that info right in the selector tree view (shown circled in red below) so I can quickly see what textures are associated with the object.


I'd also request the ability to quickly scroll through a directory of objects. So, for example if I opened object1 in a folder, and hit, say, the > key, I'd move to object2 in that same folder. And hitting the < key would move back an object. Then we'd have a full-blown msh viewer right here!

edit: I just thought of something better..if there was a folder view you could pop up and scroll through, you could select objects to load quickly just by clicking on them instead of hitting file-open, scrolling, then hitting open again.

Is Zoltan up for changing around is program like that or not?

Ya it also works great for viewing custom skins if you don't want to put them in-game.

phazon_elite wrote:I think that if there is support for saving as MSH, it shouldn't require registry. Not many people here use the full XSI program, and not many models are actually made by the people who do have it. This function could revolutionize the entire community.
I just said it should be availible if you don't register because I'm not about to ask my parents (I'm only a teen, you know) to buy a model converter program for $20 bucks. They would probably never use it at all, lol.

- EP-000782

I can sympathize (when I was a teen, I was pretty poor... okay, as an adult too ) However, it's the very fact that the market for such a tool is a small one which is why ordinarily these programs sell for more. Even if this is just a side business, Zoltan probably isn't going to work for free any more than if your boss asked you to work for free for the sake of the community. He's not a rabid SWBF fan or anything (as far as I know) so he should be compensated in some way if he's going to help us out and add save functionality. Don't forget, we're talking about months of work in his free time, writing a converter doesn't happen in a week or two (not a good one at least)

@squipple: it sounds like a good idea to me... you actually might want to mail him and suggest it (since I'm not sure how long he'll monitor these forums for)

sorry if i have failed to understand but do you have to register to export as obj or 3ds?

thanks

-waz

Penguin wrote:Its a good program but I don't want to have to spend $80-120 for it

I don't understand why this is a problem: it only costs $20US if you register using PayPal and apply the discount code I gave out in my announcement. Even the regular price is nowhere near $80US, it's $50US or 40EURO.

@wazmol69: yes, export to most usaable formats like obj is only available if you register the product (again, for $20 US)

thank you for the quick answer PlayerX...

Diet Dr. Pepper, o well i still might be able to convince my dad to buy me it...

thanks

-Waz

PlayerX

You're running into complaints about cost because of two things. One, this community consists primarily of teenagers. Not only do teenagers not normally have money, but they're reluctant to aquire it, and when they do have it, they don't want to spend it. At that age you're still learning about the value of a dollar. Two, this community (as far as I know) has always gotten everything for free. Patches, tools, maps, models. Most of the stuff we have has been done by the people, for the people. (I'd be interested to know how many of you have donated through that 'support gametoast' banner on the site) People spend tons of their own time (just ask Teancum) on stuff here, merely for the reward of knowing they're allowing others to have more fun with the game. I know I've spent at least 9 months of my evenings and weekends modding and haven't gotten paid a cent for it.

Now, this doesn't mean I disagree with you or the price. $20 is more than fair for a tool like this. But, these are the reasons for the backlash.

On another note, I'd gladly pay full price for a copy if he'd implement those two things I mentioned above in the free version. I'm in more need of a free MSH viewer than a converter currently.

Btw, have you spoken with psychofred? He posted about this tool 1 day before you did in the XSI forums

PlayerX wrote:If you register with him and use the code "swbfdiscount", you can register for only $20US if paying using PayPal.

Hm... so I've decided to go and register with PayPal, and I clicked on the 'Send Money' tab at the top. I'm guessing I just put my name/company/whatever in the notes section; is that also where I need to put the discount code? I'm not exactly willing to send $20 off if I don't get anything in return, so I just want to make sure. Thanks!

@Ace: Nice . Any chance you'd be willing to take that big lumpy backpack off and turn him into an OOM battledroid?

@PlayerX: Thanks for getting us that discount by the way. Had I been forced to pay €40 or $50 I probably wouldn't end up getting it.

I modified the .msh loader module.

My program will not load (skip) the subobject (collision model ?) that has one of the following names:
p_'*
c_*
hp_*
bone_*


I uploaded the developer version to my web page.

You can download it using the following link:
http://web.t-online.hu/karpo/3dc32390x_dev_20070223.zip

PlayerX wrote:

Penguin wrote:Its a good program but I don't want to have to spend $80-120 for it

I don't understand why this is a problem: it only costs $20US if you register using PayPal and apply the discount code I gave out in my announcement. Even the regular price is nowhere near $80US, it's $50US or 40EURO.

@wazmol69: yes, export to most usaable formats like obj is only available if you register the product (again, for $20 US)

You have to convert to other countries, I live in Australia

Rekubot wrote:Any chance you'd be willing to take that big lumpy backpack off and turn him into an OOM battledroid?

Already on it!

Looks like it'd be $25.32 AUD, Penguin.
You can do currency (as well as many other things) conversion on this site if you need to in the future.
http://www.onlineconversion.com/

AceMastermind,

Did you try the latest version ?
/Feb 23, 2007/

KZ_3D wrote:AceMastermind,

Did you try the latest version ?
/Feb 23, 2007/

No, not yet, i'll give it a try in a little while.

EDIT:
Nice work, it loads the main geometries, collision meshes (but not collision primitives) and textures, which allows you to see the model more clearly, at least for the objects that I tested.

For me, these changes are great for just viewing models, however, on occasion, i would like to see the names of hardpoints (hp_) for convenience, but that isn't too big of a deal.

KZ_3D wrote:I modified the .msh loader module.

My program will not load (skip) the subobject (collision model ?) that has one of the following names:
p_'*
c_*
hp_*
bone_*


I uploaded the developer version to my web page.

You can download it using the following link:
http://web.t-online.hu/karpo/3dc32390x_dev_20070223.zip

Waitaminute... I have not yet installed the latest update but Zoltan, this is not necessarily a good thing for everyone (myself included). If I want to see the collision geometry (because I am porting a SWBF2 model back to SWBF1) then this will prevent me from seeing it in later versions of the 3doc tool. I would suggest that users can set either preferences to skip the bones/hps/collision geometry or to load the entire object. Since everything is kept in separate object groups, it isn't hard to isolate and remove undesirable groups in the 3d editor. Obviously people who want to use it as a MSH viewer would set it to skip those parts.

FYI: In case other people on GameToast do not realize, KZ_3D is Zoltan, the author of the 3d object converter, so now you can ask him your questions directly

squipple wrote:PlayerX

You're running into complaints about cost because of two things. One, this community consists primarily of teenagers. Not only do teenagers not normally have money, but they're reluctant to aquire it, and when they do have it, they don't want to spend it. At that age you're still learning about the value of a dollar. Two, this community (as far as I know) has always gotten everything for free. Patches, tools, maps, models. Most of the stuff we have has been done by the people, for the people. (I'd be interested to know how many of you have donated through that 'support gametoast' banner on the site) People spend tons of their own time (just ask Teancum) on stuff here, merely for the reward of knowing they're allowing others to have more fun with the game. I know I've spent at least 9 months of my evenings and weekends modding and haven't gotten paid a cent for it.

Now, this doesn't mean I disagree with you or the price. $20 is more than fair for a tool like this. But, these are the reasons for the backlash.

On another note, I'd gladly pay full price for a copy if he'd implement those two things I mentioned above in the free version. I'm in more need of a free MSH viewer than a converter currently.

Btw, have you spoken with psychofred? He posted about this tool 1 day before you did in the XSI forums

squipple, like I mentioned I do sympathize... it's been a long time since I was a teen but I do remember these being issues for me too. However, I've spent two years of my time modding for various games for free and when I needed a tool to do mesh conversions or poly optimization I did pay for it... partly because it's the right thing to do, but also because in these cases I knew the authors were running a small (perhaps struggling) business and if I wanted the tool to improve or to add features that I need later, I have to pay them to make sure it lives a long time. Many free tools get discontinued or eventually left unsupported by the creator because they are free and eat up a lot of time to support. Many of us would rather use our free time to get a life, a girlfriend, support our family with food and rent, etc. so free work is a rarity unless one is passionate (as most modders are).

Many teens growing up now are used to rampant piracy of software and mp3s; my friend at Microsoft has repeatedly complained that the attitude held by many is that no one wants to pay for software, they want all of their software for free and balk at paying anything. So if there are a lot of teens here, the best lesson they can learn now is that you have to pay for some things to ensure they survive or at least support them in some other meaningful way if you want to help the author (tell your friends about the product and maybe they will register, or post about it on a forum like this one). As I noted, Zoltan is not a SWBF fan AFAIK and isn't doing it for the same reasons that we are -- hence for anyone to complain to him that this tool should be free is unwarranted. He does not owe us or the SWBF community anything until we show our commitment to him through registration (payment).

And don't forget that many authors can be very flexible and generous with registration. That is the advantage of shareware unlike commercial software sold at a retail chain... you can ask the author for a discount because you are a student and only need a few features and maybe he will offer a deal like the $20 one that Zoltan is offering. Electronic distribution means that the costs are low to run a software business (but not zero) and it can be better to make one registration for a low price than no registration at all. Sometimes authors may not realize they are asking for too much money to register so as a potential customer you can also indicate a price that you are willing to pay.

I wouldn't necessarily expect Zoltan to add the features you mentioned into the free version because honestly, when most people get what they want in the free version, they will not register. They really have no incentive to do so. That is not a criticism of anyone's integrity -- I'm having problems paying my own rent and monthly bills right now and if I can save some money I'd do the same... it's just human nature. But it needs to be measured against the possibiity that then such tools will never improve or survive without our help.

Whew.

I haven't talked to psychofred about the post; like I said earlier, I spent a few weeks contacting various developers trying to enlist their help to make a MSH importer. Zoltan is the only one who helped me out and I do wish I had just posted the news right away instead of taking so much time making those examples to show off the tool. but I felt that I wanted to get the community excited about 3doc and pictures say more than words.

ADD: Also, I'd like to thank Riley for actually documenting the MSH file format. Most developers will not work on a 3d conversion tool for an object format without a clear reference to the file specifications and I rememered Riley's webpage when I wanted to give Zoltan a reference to the MSH file type. Riley did an excellent job here and also deserves credit for his hard work. For those who don't know about it, his page is here:
http://personal.riley-man.com/swbf/editing/

Maybe someone will write a LVL ripper next using this valuable info.

Yes, I know free time is a rarity, I run into it daily. A life is what you make of it, and doesn't need to involve girlfriends or a family.

I also wanted to reiterate that I agree with you about the price being fair. You're seeming a little defensive, but maybe you're just trying to speak to the masses.

The things I'm asking for are things not related to exporting the msh (which is the restricted part) but related to the viewing of the msh's information. The reasoning behind my request is because I've developed a "viewing" tool, but it works only on screenshots of the object, not the actual model (see this topic). With the things I'd requested, my tool wouldn't need the several hours work needed to take screenshots and enter XML data, and would really be unneeded altogether, as this would make for a much better viewing tool. And as I had mentioned, I'd pay full price for a copy just to show my appreciation. I probably would never use the feature that a full copy would enable.
Otherwise the features can stay as is, and I'll go on my merry way. Just an offer is all.